Brain Flossing

Gefilte, just bloged about this same issue HERE.

WRONG!

What drives the MARKET is sales. PERIOD.
Wal-Mart has high sales volume. That is all.
Vons' etc. are using the OLD corporate manuveur
of trying to sneak in the back door.
It does not matter what they do if sales are not increased substantially they are out.
Real simple Capitalism.

While right, and not dissagreeing with what I said, you are missing the point. The point is in the question of the true viability of a system that always puts $$ in front of people. As I mentioned, Wal-Mart is being a good capitalistic company and not breaking any rules. But, in a country where 35% of people without health insurance work for big companies and where health insurance for middles class and lower are going bye bye, who does this American capitalism help? I'm not even getting in to the argument about how we still pay for health insurance for those that can't afford it. When they go to the general hospital for free treatment, you and I pay anyway. This system that continues to lower all classes below upper-middle is not sustainable. Nor will the oppressed take it forever.

hurry up and stop corp greed i miss the workers hurry up and remove bird from ceo

Thanks for your understanding

The problem is PEOPLE! What many people do not understand (and are not taught) is that, in a true market system, pay is not based on goodwill or what someone "owes" you. It is based on many factors such as demand, supply of that skill-set, etc.

When I was a kid, grocery checking really WAS a skilled job. Those guys were going a mile a minute with that ten key - and they HAD to be accurate. Today, it is all computerized with scanning devices, etc. Heck, the customer now even makes the payment. The skill level required is that of any entry-level retail worker. So, the market doesn't really NEED to pay $17-20 per hour for this service. To think that you could earn that much money running items over a sanner (like any other retail job) really doesn't make any sense. The ONLY reason why these jobs pay what they dp is because of Union contracts. The union contracts artificially set a higher pay rate. When you introduce competetion (such as Walmart, etc), that will pay half of what they are paying at the major grocers, the large grocer MUST do something to maintain the competetive edge. Call it corporate greed - whatever. The bottom line is that the directors and CEO have a legal obligation to do all that they can to maximize profits for the investors and shareholders.

So, if they don't change, they lose market share, or worst case - they close shop. Then, you have no job at all. And guess what? You end up having to join the workforce at Walmart. This is ALL business.

So, what does one do who works for a grocer?

Well, first of all, it depends on where you are in your career. If this is your first job, and you are in school - no big deal. You will most likely move on to bigger and better things.

If you are career grocer, it may be a good time to re-think your career. Times are changing. This is a global economy. You need to decide if scanning grocery items is really a skill-set that is going to yield the kind of dollars you want to make for the long haul.

It kind of sucks. It's just life - something one must deal with. My career had changed gears so many times. I have had to re-look at what I am doing, re-train in various areas, etc. You have to keep morphing yourself to remain competetive out there.

This sounds harsh, but...

Stop whining, and get out there and do something with your life. No union, or any other person or entity out there is going to do it for you. I can't imagine a life where I needed to rely on some Union organiztion for my livelyhood.

Unions were useful during the industrial age. In the new information age, I hate to say it, but they are essentially worthless.

What has the Union done for you now? So, you are on strike, walking around with a sign. You have no job. The Union leadership are still getting paid. When (or if) you go back to work, you will continue to pay their salary. They put your butt on the line and promise so much. But really, when it call comes down to nut-cutting time, both sides will have to compromise. The Union is NOT going to hand you the world.

If I was the CEO of these grocers, I would be asking myself why I don't just hire a new non-union workforce and call it a day.

Sorry to be so blunt. But I can't stand going to the store. It is so pathetic to see people puting their lives on hold for the stupid union. If I don't like what a company or employer is doing, I try to work it out. If we can't agree, I stop doing business with them and move on to the next prospect. I DONT camp out in front of their place of business and whine about it.

I have to say I kind of agree with Mark here. I don't particularly agree with the ideas of unions in the first place. Mark made some good points about skill sets. You can't expect to be a paper boy all of your life and make 17.00 an hour. I've been relatively lucky with finding work that paid a decent wage without needing a union to do it for me. There have been some tough times in my life with employers not wanting to pay we what I was worth nor provide the benefits I thought they should have. I utilized MY choice and found an employer that better suited my needs. Contrary to popular belief, there IS plenty of work out there for people to take advantage of. My proof and point is the fact that I've had probably 15 jobs in the last 5 years. Some by choice and others based upon the econemy. When I was about to get laid off at a Technology company, I quit and because I could not find any work in my field of expertise, I went and worked for Starbucks. I was making 6.75 an hour. I used it as a springboard to something esle. In most cases I work for me and my family and not to support THEIR companies and line their pockets with gold. Therefore I know what's best for me and I don't need a union to dictate or negotiate what is best. The union is just another company trying to line their pockets as well. The union is just like any other company, if you think their holding out for your best interest, you're horribly mistaken. Ever been in a union where you were forced to strike and not be able to work for 3 months? 3 months of some small stypend of 25 dollars a day? Yea that's personal success. The only one that's going to do it for you is YOU. Find your self a skill set you can be happy in. One that pays you enough to live and be happy.

While I agree that Unions have become outdated, I think you are still missing the important point of all this. Unions or no unions, there is something wrong with a system that demands companies provide less and less for their employees in order to remain competative. It is a trend that has no end in sight. So, speaking within the narrow ideologies of the system we can agree with Vons' actions. If they don't compete from a compensation stand point, they will have a more difficult time competeing. (Though as a subnote, it has been mentioned that the people running Vons are still doing quite well.) There is something gravely wrong with a system that always puts profit over people. You've heard of trickle down economics, well this is trickle up economics. It begins with the lower classes, then moves up. The less money the bulk of American's have, the less they spend. If they do not have health insurance, we will end up paying for it anyway. But even those facts do not point out the more pressing issue. Our country/coulture is becoming more defined by economics than people. As these companies decrease the benefits they give their employees, it begins a domino affect where that becomes a competative pivot point. The community suffers.



I had the opportunity to talk to an Italian this weekend. He had a lot of negative things to say about their government, but when it came to health care, he was appalled at the situation in the states. We've always critisized the countries with socialized medicine, and maybe we had just cause, but its getting to the point where our health care system is getting far worse than even the long waits they suffer in Canada. I bet they'd still choose their system of ours given our system's current status. And the community suffers.



As a coulture we have to learn that people are more important than profits. Capitalism is a failure if it comes at the expense of the community. Those who engineered the concepts of the capitalistic free market in this country believed it would give everyone a better chance at a healthier happier life. What good is it being the richest nation in the country if only an elete few benefit? We need to change our priorities. We need to understand we are all in this together. As we continue to deplete our resources, and continue to polorize the classes, things will only get worse. We will more readily succeed individually if we all succeed. These ideas may be radical, especially if you have personally benefited from our current masochistic system, but we need to look beyond our personal situation and see the long view.



The town I live in is a perfect example of what happens when we base our judgments solely on our situation. All of our town managers and leaders are home owners. The more they sell out the community, they more money they make as their home's increase exponenationally in value. Meanwhile, everyone else in town suffers. Nothing good can come greed and selfishness.


Sorry for the long winded response, but its my party and I'll cry if I want to.

"You would cry too if it happened to you"

I THINK VONS SHOULD CUT OUT UNION WORKERS AND GIVE PEOPLE A JOB THAT REALLY WANT TO WORK. I ALSO THINK THEY, THE WORKERS, NEED TO KNOW THAT 99.9 % OF WORKERS ARE PAYING IN MORE MONEY FOR BENEFETS.I THINK IT IS WRONG FOR THE STRIKERS TO CAUSE SUCH TROUBLES FOR EVERYONE, AND I THINK THE UNION PULLING THE TEAMSTERS IN IS DIRTY POOL, CAUSING STRESS ON EVERYONE THAT IS TRYING TO LIVE THEIR LIVES WITH FAMILY.

The idea that they should stop because they are inconveniencing the rest of us is a perfect example of the selfish nature of our brand of capitalism. Its that same attitude that says the solution to homelessness is having those damn people get a job. Going back to the idea of social conscious capitalism, we should make it our job to care about how others are faring. In a selfish way, it affects us anyway. As their health benefits decrease (within our current system) we all end up paying more anyway. Using community thought, we shoud just care. They are fellow humans and fellow Americans. It's not much different from saying that all those people who lost loved ones on 9/11 should stop making such a fuss about it because it makes the rest of us uncomfortable. We're either in this together or we're not. Our collective answer is obvious. Our collective answer is wrong.

I have worked for the welfare department for over 10 years.

FACT: Vons employees are paid enough that they don't need to go on government aid (cash aid, food stamps, Section 8 housing or medical) to support their families.

FACT: Many people working at Walmart do, meaning that Von's employees, you, me, and other taxpayers foot the bill for their costs of living while WalMart kicks out the biggest profit margins in the country.

'Nuff said.

Enjoyed the spark. Perhaps a law should be passed makng it illegal for health insurance to be subsidized by employers.

I just want to thank Wocko for being enlightened enough to view this debate from a humanitarian standpoint. The climate of greed in this country is at an all-time high, and if we are to improve the plight of humankind, we need to find ways to look out for everyone. If 99.9% of workers are suffering from health care cuts, my applause goes out to the Vons' workers for finally trying to make a statement against it. The discussion involving skill sets is something I subscribe to, having recently signed up for an education in nursing (even though I already have 5 years of college and no good job under my belt...). However, the real underlying issue here has more to do with people getting skills other than bagging groceries...it has to do with the health and wellness of our nation. What amazes me about Americans sometimes is how they will 'oooh' and 'aaah' over the plight of the poor and hungry, especially in other countries, yet will not support their neighbors who have a vision for a brighter future for everyone. Do you really think those people outside holding signs are in this for themselves only? You don't show that kind of sacrifice for selfish reasons...

My wife has worked as a merchandiser for American Greetings for 12 years and is responsible for the greeting cards upkeep in two stores, a Vons and a Pavilions in the Santa Clarita area. She only works about 4 hours a week and makes just over minimum wage for her efforts. Its not the money, but the social gathering with friends and just getting out of the house that she enjoys. Strikers have harrassed her when entering and leaving the stores she still services.
I am a retired Police Sergeant and I go with her on occasion as the strike drags on and the picketing gets more and more personal to intimidate customers from shopping. I saw a man hold a sign in front of an elderly womans face as she was trying to enter the store and he turned rapidly to the right and accidentily struck me with the sign. Before I could excuse myself he yelled out, " well excuse YOU!" to me. He started to call me names and I also told him a few things. He finished with, "I hope you die from whatever you buy in the store to eat". Well, I wasn't buying anything that day, just escorting my wife from the store.
I have bought many things from the store since then and will continue to unless the stikers get their jobs back and work inside......then I will NEVER go back into those stores EVER again.
I really believe that if they had a complait with management, they should protest them, not the customers that they want to go back in the stores to face them when they can try to act CIVIL again. (biting the hand that feeds you was never a good idea)

Prophetic words Mr. Groller. Prophetic words.

Wow Richard, I feel for you. I would have screamed my death roar, ripped off my shirt, punched the guy in the face, wield the 4 and a 1/2 foot samuri sword from my sheath, and made minced meat out of the picketers!!!... I agree with the verbal assault you gave the worker in lieu of the ass-beating of a century; all in all it was the more decent thing to do. I get physical when some one gets physical with me, as I am sure you (knowing the hand to hand combat skills of a Police Sergeant) could have handed the rude picketer his ass in a jar the if you wanted. I have been told of Temporary Vons workers (scabs) getting harrassed and even beat to the ground with the picketing signs! It is very noble of you to walk your wife to work, even if the grocery store may be in a less aggressive neighborhood. I would shake your hand if I could.

If you are not in support of the strike than you are not educated on the facts. Nor do you know someone whom this is affecting. Most of these workers have put in 11 or more years to there career in the grocery business. They have time invested in there pensions. Nobody just walks away from a job after 11 or more years. Not all grocery workers are bag boys. You have receivers, meat cutters, deli workers etc...You are uninformed if you think all clerks and bag boys make 17-20.00 an hour. Get the facts straight before you go putting these workers down. Put yourself in there shoes. Could you stand to lose all they are about to lose. The health care that is being offered to these people is 50% coverage. That means they are responsible for 50% of there medical costs. Could you afford to pay 50% of all your medical costs. What about the workers whom have illnesses or loved ones that are ill. How are they going to afford the costs of keeping themselves alive. Get informed and have a little compassion. I hope you experience great loss in your life, enough that you will finally realize that what they are fighting for is a good cause. Besides this is a country with a horrible economy. The likely hood of these workers to find other jobs making what they have been making and living on is not positive. It's not going to happen here in America.

Cristy,

For the sake of argument, what if I was educated on the facts AND against the strike? Your claim of absolutes ("not educated," not knowing someone affected) weaken your point. If there is a single counter example, your argument is shot.

Also, asking people to have "a little compassion," and in the next sentence hoping they "experience great loss in ... life" is astoundingly hypocritical.

These issues aren't as simple as anyone lets on, and it's time people started giving a bit of credit to those they disagree with for being, at the very least, fellow human beings deserving of some respect.

You know, at first I had nothing to think about all of this. But, now since they have tried to put me , my children (4 yrs old ) and others in danger by puting baby oil all over my front windshield and back and that wasn't all they have even committed property damage by also putting super glue sploches on my windshield. I am furious for the safety of myself and my children which i have to pick up from daycare i could have gotten in an accident now come on people this is waaay serious. I'm not out to replace you permantly but for me it gave me a chance to gain experience for a working history and get off of welfare. I want to work. I appreciate this chance for whatever or however i got the job I do my job as if I was working it forever cause I take pride in myself and i don't want to rely on others the state or no one to take care of me and my own. Now you guys need to put yourselves in our shoes if people like yourselves were putting your family meaning children and others in danger , you would stop attacking the wrong people. This is coming from a single mother of 2 boys.

"The likely hood of these workers to find other jobs making what they have been making and living on is not positive"

--Yeah, no kidding . . . that's because they are making way, way too much, and no other company is stupid enough to pay them that much.
I would fire all of those strikers, and I'd probably start with Cristy . . .

People, to a large extent, make their own choices in this life. If you delay gratification when you are young and study or are otherwise ambitious, you can afford the things in life that cost money.
Healthcare, just like anything else costs money.
No sympathy is deserved by the strikers. They are not victims, they came to hold menial jobs because of the choices they made, to a large extent. Workers in menial jobs can be replaced, often by people in high-school, as I saw at the Vons around my house. The answer to this situation is not the big, bad, greedy companies. Competition creates lower prices not only for the middle and upper classes, but for everyone.
The answer is that people refuse to live within their means, including having children, and they believe that for every misfortune in life, there must be another tit of entitlement to suck. For the most part, these workers are no exception.

I can understand the "all for one,and one for all"
veiw about our our nation banding together to help support a strike, but that only lasted about a month when saw how the strikers treated the incomming costumiers at different Vons stores. I use to work for a Vons about a year ago and one thing that I have taken from that job was the importance is COSTUMIER SERVICE. To politely act in a carring way. I don't see that displayed by the strikers. They even whine and hassle the people who only go to Vons to use their bank. Costumire service is important because the kindness of the workers is what draws the consumer back to their store. Now who is really going to want to go back and shop at Vons after the strike? Who will want to shop at a store where the employers use to harasse them? It was mentioned by "Wonko" that the nation is being selfish by not standing up, well I think for strikers to sit down is sellfish. Vons strikers make more money than my parttime job working at a Boys and Girls club. where my job is only 20per week @ 7buckper hour, I struggle paying for school but i have to make it on my own. That's selfish of them to pull everyones lives down so they could have it easier than me. I work to hard for my money, but life is tuff, deal with it. In a country where more money is put to space development than enviormental funding, we all have to look out for eachother, but it all starts by taking care of yourself. You got to save yourself before you save others. As it is Vons workers are payed better than most jobs that you have to put harder to into. Go out to the feilds and pick for less a day with out benifits if you disagree with me. Vons employees are lucky to have it the way it is...

Anybody knows how much salary strikers are getting ? Are they living ok?

Jared-

I can tell you're a skinny little nerd, and I'll beat your ass.

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