Brain Flossing

Sounds like they're taking a pay cut just like everyone else.
perish the thought.

Well, I don't know much about this issue, but remember that collective bargaining agreements are negotiated for specific time periods. If at the end of the contract, management and union cannot come to an agreement, then there has to be a way for either party to walk away.

Wal-Mart can be non-union probably because they offer other incentives to make their employees happy. It may not be higher pay or medical benefits, it could be flex time, discounts, paid sick days, paid vacation, pension plan. They also probably fire anyone mentions the word union.

Taking a pay cut is not the only issue here. Steve Burd the Ceo of Safeway and Vons' parent company is trying to take away most of the pension plan, the sunday pay that store employees are offered, make employees pay for health care and if the cost of health care goes up he wants store employees to pay the difference. There is a list two miles long of all the things he is trying to take away because he feels his store employees are paid too much. Wal-mart is just a scapegoat. If any of you worked for a retail grocery store you would know what it is like. Steve Burd and his corporate employees sit in their offices in Pleasanton and think of new ways to bother the employees and annoy the customers> They raise grocery prices, change store aisles every six months and have district and store managers be complete a**holes to the store employees. What Steve Burd and everyone else in management at these companies don't realize is that it is the friendly and helpful IN-STORE employees that bring in the customers. NOBODY likes to shop at Wal-Mart. Its crowded, noisy, and there is no english speaking help. Wal-mart can charge lower because they treat their employees like crap. Minimum wage or lower, no sick days, no health care, no full time, and any mention of union gets employees fired. Everyone should boycott Wal-Mart just because of the nasty way they treat their employees.
If the argument between the employees at Vons and albertsons was just about a pay cut this strike probably wouldn't be going on for this long. Most grocery employees can't even afford to live where they work. Most have to commute 1-3hrs to work and back everyday. I work for Safeway and I for one am not going to roll over and let Steve Burd and his corporate cronies take my pay. Maybe if Mr Burd, who by the way makes more than $150,000 a year plus bonuses, should try lowering the pay of his friends in management. Store managers alone make about 100,000 a year plus bonuses. Maybe its not the cost of the store employees who at best make 19.04 an hour that are causing the downfall of all the grocery stores maybe its the greedy corporate employees who are the problem. Think about that.

Tara,

I'd be very careful about using extreme words like "NOBODY." They have this funny way of making what you've said turn out to be wrong.

All of you stop whining and go back work. Jeez.

There is a parallel here. The major airlines were also too slow to adjust to the the changing economic climate. Wal-Mart had $246 billion in sales last year. That's eight times more than Microsoft. The average union market wage is 14.71. It's 9.16 at Wal-mart.The wave is comming to a store near you.

I love to shop at Wal-Mart, and I am not NOBODY.

This country was built on freedom, and the Mafia Union Extortionists need to be dissolved, and let supply and demand take care of it.

These union leaders make a lot more that any supermarket employee, and support crooked politicians with your money.

Your union leaders are no more innocent as Steve Burd or any of his "Cronies" that you seem to hate so much. Unions have lost many jobs by making outragous demands that are not affordable. Look at the UAW and how many jobs it has chased out of the country. Union leaders make more than your company presidents & what exactly have they done for you except make sure that you have paid your dues on time. I have been forced to join a union against my will just in case workers in another department go on strike, we would have to walk out to, is that fair? As far as medical benefits, join the rest of us underpaid / over worked people who have to pay for the priviledge. If Walmart was so bad to their employees no one would work there right? JUST GET REAL......
Stores need to be competitive to remain in the market so you may have your jobs. Which would you prefer, pay cut or lay off???

I worked for Wal Mart for 3 years about 10yrs ago, and there is no way you can make a house payment and car payment with the wages they pay. Most of the women or men that work there, that have a family had some type of social services, which comes from the tax payers.

I think there is a common misconception of this issue, namely that you must be for the union to be for the strikers, or against the union to be against the strikers. It IS possible to be AGAINST Unions as they are structured today, but FOR the current strikers and their cause. Personally, I am on the fence as to whether unions are good or bad in principal given today's market. However, I DO believe that most unions as they exist today do NOT do what they were intended to do. Most unions are just as corrupt as the corporations they are supposed to protect their members against. But here again, one can be FOR the concept of Unions while being AGAINST current unions. Much the same way you can be for capitalism in principal while against America's brand of capitalism.

So before you say that your against the strikers because you think the Unions are corrupt, try and separate those issues and determine whether you are really against the strikers cause and not just against Unions in general.



Also, while I agree there have been strikers who have been overly aggressive, here again you have to separate the strikers from the strike. You can claim and believe that some or most of the strikers have been rude, insensitive and/or overly aggressive while at the same time not disagreeing with their cause. Personally I have not had any problems with the strikers, but I've heard first hand accounts from those who had. Even if I had had problems with them, I would still agree with their cause.

As a full-charge bookkeeper, I have been worked in a wholesale company for 8 years, with $13 per hour currently, without raise in 3 years but cutting the working hours due to nationwide enconomy problem.
I was diagnosed cancer 5 years ago. Although the treatment had been over, with previous health problem, I couldn't offer the high premiun insurance as individual, if I quit the job. I have to keep this job that seems no future to me.
In this case, I think the middle class has the worse situation. There is not a problem to rich pepople. There is also not a problem to the low income people too. They can get support from government, apply low-cost or non-cost medical insurance.
Whatever, the employers and the insurance company perfer to keep their profit. What can we do as indivial? Not with union.

Dan, you point out an interesting difference with our health care industry that a well known economist pointed out. In other industries, prices for different groups are set based on what they can afford, otherwise no one would buy their products. For example, if seniors weren't given a break on movie tickets, they wouldn't go as much. In the health care industry, it is exactly the opposite. Those who are charged the most are those who can afford it the least.

Wonko, Mostly other industries charge those lower prices because it means a larger profit. Senior discounts on movie tickets isn't likely to be an expression of altruism, but rather a way of luring the seniors in and ending up making more money than if there were no discount.

I did not mean to imply it was a matter of altruism, rather one of profits. In order to increase sales you can't charge too far above what your clientel can afford. It just so happens that in health care, that isn't the case. They charge whatever they want and thanks to waning majority of people who have good managed care plans, they CAN charge more than people can afford.

I'm a flight attendant for one of the largest airlines in the world. 3 years ago our pilot where up for a new contract. It was a nasty summer and we lost most of our business passengers, which make up for the majority of the airlines profit's. Then 9/11 happened. Over 100.000 airline employees lost there job. For us lucky once who put enough years in with the company, times where changing fast. Our pilot's took a %25 paycut, we flight attendants took a %8 cut and also have to pay for medical insurance now.
We are glad to still have a job, a strike would have been unthinkable. The difference beetween a checker and a flight attendantant is that checkers can be replaced in no time as the job takes no skills and anyone can do it.
Just for your references a clerk at Vons makes more money then some flight attendants do. And why in the world would anyone stay with a company as a clerk for a long time anyway? I was born in Germany and compared to Europe this is still the land of opportunity.
And it is not all about corporate greed, look at the union leaders that still make an average of $80.000 a year. They are only keeping there jobs as long as there is work for them, as longer the strike as better for them. By the way our union use to be very strong as well but with so many flight attendants without a job we just had to merge with another union because our union was broke. So tell me where do you, the people who work as a checker see yourself in 5 or 10 years? Why don't take this time of strike to move on to better and bigger things in life?
I'm sure it is not that easy, the economy is bad, most of you have no education or are just getting one. Where in CA can you make $17.90 an hour without any skills?
Did you ever think what will happen once this strike is over? Vons lost so much business because of the strike it will take them a while to recover. Where will you be in the mean time? Don't you think the same thing will happen to you that happened to us airliners? There will be major lay offs for a while. But uhh maybe it's not too bad after all, at least then you can spend your time collecting unemployment and not walking up and down the parking lot anymore.
I think the smart people are the once who crossed the line to work for Vons during this strike to make some extra $. At least they are taking the opportunity this country offers to all of us.
Good luck to all the strikers still out there!

I have never afraid of unemployment. I have work experience and skill which isn't anybody can replace. I didn't set my goal too high so I had a peaceful life for years.
Nowadays, things are different. Beside those industries who produce the war necessaries and benefit from the war, or relative to it, most of companies have to cut down their cost for competition and survival. What they can do is reducing unnecessary cost and expenses, cutting down employee benefit and wages, or lay off. On the other hand, the government has tried to raise taxes to fill the debt. You can see the property tax, license fees, business tax, housing cost , insurance and other fees are increasing. People couldn't stand it. That is one of the major reason that governor Davis got fired, in California.
However, people have to fight for survival. Not only the employees, but also the employers.

This is for the flight attendant.The strike is for everyone in the store,not just clerks. Meat Managers, Meat cutters, Produce Mangers, Produce clerks.Oh ya by the way, these jobs take more skill and a hell and I mean hell of a lot more labor then some glorafied waittress in the sky,that dont do shit! You dont no why anyone wood stay at these jobs for any length of time let me tell you why.Iam a Meat Manager I make about twenty one dollars an hour,thirty six dollars on Sunday.If I work Holidays its sixty dollars an hour.My spouse is a Produce clerk she makes almost the same.We finish our thirty years our pension would be around 4,000 a month.S.S would be around 2,600 total 6,600 a month.With our investments we will live just fine.Mabey you should Quit your sorry ass job and pick up a application.No you couldnt do that the hours might be to tough for you. nights weekends, holidays,work late come back early.Have to lift frieght or 90 boxes of meat all day, actually do labor for a living.p.s kiss my ass!!

Anja how could your praise anyone who crossed the line? they are the unions weak link with them crossing the line it makes it that much harder for us to win our fight! scabs should be kicked out of our union.

Anja how could your praise anyone who crossed the line? they are the unions weak link with them crossing the line it makes it that much harder for us to win our fight! scabs should be kicked out of our union.

hi anja,
i was a little bit saddened by your comment stating that "anyone can do it" meaning checker wise. well, have you heard the saying "dont knock it til youve tried it" i mean i would never knock on a flight attendants job! it sounds very easy, and looks very easy considering how many flights ive been on. what my point here is...maybe you should take a look at the monkeys in the store doing our jobs now. everyday on the line i hear line crossers bitch about how stupid these "checkers" really are and cant get much right.
as far as getting a new job is...think about those of them out there who have families. how can the single parents go to school and strike (or even if they had that minimum wage job) plus have time for their kids.
you know, i dont have to stick around. im 19 and going to college to become a registered nurse. sure, i could find another job right now and not give a shit about everyone else, but i am keeping an open mind and FIGHTING for what is right for me and for my coworkers. when you work with people, they become your family, at least to me. i am barely keeping my bills up, but i am staying because these people are my family.

I think these strikers are the biggest idiots I have ever seen in my life. Everyone feels so sorry for them. Its their choice! No one should feel bed for people who choose not to work... its like, go find another job! Or, they could resign PARTIALLY from the union and lose their right to vote, and still keep their same pay and benifits. Oh my god, the right to vote, whoopdi doo! Go get a job and pay for your own benifits like the rest of America.

Tawny, you are ignorant! When you have no clue about what the hell you are talking about then you should just shut up

Hey anja:
maybe we should not care when the plane you are on crashes. We need to start caring about people again instead of just ourselves.

Hey Rich, shouldn't you be outside your OLD job striking, or,hey... how'd you get a computer? You know what? Grown men shouldnt be working at Supermarkets anyway....Unless youre an idiot, which, you probably are, and thats why youre still on strike like a loser...

I agree with you Tawny! Rich, I take it you are one of the people on strike. Why don't you people start caring about others. Do you honestly feel it is right for the strikers to try and force other people to change their routine or travel much farther and stand in longer lines just to buy food? If you do think this is right, then I will say you are the idiot! So far, I know 4 people who have been forced to quit and find other jobs. It seems like "their union" did absolutly nothing for them. Well actually it did, they have found better non-union jobs and will probably be much happier in the long run.

Right on, Frank!

I cannot wait until the stores shut down and re-open non union. I suspect (and hope) thats what will happen after Jan. 1. Then the strikers can write on their picket signs "will bag for food" and march around the stores. Enough of this Union crap, they simply are not worth the hassle they are creating for everyone else.

To Tara:

You are very good at writing fiction. I shop at WalMart and have never encountered non-English speaking employees. What facts do you have to prove that besides words coming out of your mouth??

Unless you are on welfare nobody owes you a paycheck. You go to work you get a check. You don't like your job you get another one. In the real world you must have job skills. So Tara, if you think your employer does not have your best interests in mind....GO GET ANOTHER JOB!! Unless, you are depending on that union to fix everything for you.

Take some responsibility!! Take your job skills somewhere else.

Your union has screwed you out of so many unrecoverable wages that you will never recover what you lost. That is a fact! The replacement workers have your jobs and that is a fact. Your union leader did not tell you it would take this long to resolve this. Another fact. The fact is Tara...you are screwed....

TO ALL THE NASTY AND NEGATIVE PEOPLE. YOU ALL THINK YOUR BETTER THAN THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE STRIKING. WELL, YOU ARE NOT. YOU ARE ONLY SHOWING HOW SAD, AND NARROW MINDED YOU ALL ARE. THESE PEOPLE ARE OUT THERE FOR A GREAT CAUSE. THESE PEOPLE ARE FIGHTING FOR BETTER WAGES, TO KEEP WHAT THEY WERE PROMISED WITH THEIR PENSIONS AND TO MAINTAIN THE MEDICAL BENEFITS THEY WERE PROMISED, WHEN THEY WERE FIRST HIRED ON. AND JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE GROCERY WORKERS DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE IDIOTS. HERE IS A FACT, NOT ALL WORKERS MAKE 17.90 HR. AND IF THEY WERE FOCED TO PAY 50% OF ALL MEDICAL, THEY WOULD HAVE TO GET A SECOND JOB OR GO ON WELFARE AND MEDI-CAL. AND WE KNOW WHO PAYS FOR THAT. TAX PAYERS. ANOTHER Fact WAL-MART HAS A HIRING PROCEDURE. AFTER THEY HIRE YOU, THEY SHOW YOU HOW TO APPLY AND COLLECT WEL-FARE AND MEDI-CAL. I'VE BEEN TO THESE STORES AND ALL THEY HIRE ARE NON-ENGLISH SPEAKING HELP.THAT TO ME IS VERY SAD. THEY WERE ALSO CAUGHT HIRING HELP WITH ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. THESE GROCERY WORKERS DESERVE TO MAKE WAGES THAT MATCH OUR COST OF LIVING IN CALIFORNIA. SO PLEASE FIRST FIND OUT THE FACTS AND THEN MAKE AN EDUCATED COMMENT. THIS STRIKE IS DEVASTING ALOT OF PEOPLE AND IT GOES BEYOND THE 71,000 PEOPLE WHO ARE OUT OF WORK. OUR WORKERS APPRECIATE THE SUPPORT OF THE PUBLIC, BUT ALSO APOLOGIZE FOR THE BURDEN IT HAS CAUSED.

THANKS,
ANA

would you people please get a clue....I'm a right wing republican, but this is just wrong. If these people work full-time (2000 hrs a year) they make $34,000 (50 weeks/yr x 40 hrs/wk x $17.00/hr). Do you really think this is over paid..this is the average wage in the this country. if you think the breaking up of unions is a good thing you are seriously wrong. continue to ship good jobs over seas, let's see what happens 20 years from now...keep bringing in cheap labor and see what happens 20 years from now..the continued globalization without any us protection is idiotic.....we've had horrible leadership in washington for 40 years and it's about to come home to roost....

Reading this thread and some other posts brings up a question in my mind - What is rich? (I'm talking about cash and assets here. Not philosophically.)

This is for another asshole,Scabbie...You fucken dumbass, if all the stores closed down and tried to open non-union do you think they could find 70 thousand people to work without a contract.I know they do at wal-mart but they never had a good contract to know what it is like.All you need is around 60% of the people to vote union yes.Then your right back were you started.Times might have to get real bad before unions start to make a comeback.Are you people for real, how much more corporate greed are you chickenshits going to take!

Well Ross I hate to break it to you but there are currently 70,000 scabs running the stores. Talk about a dumbass. Speaking of dumb shits, do you really think that stores are not trying to break that pathetic union of yours? And given the fact that they have not capitulated to you yet what makes you think they will not succeed? Dumbass indeed.

To the dumbass that thinks 70,000 scabs are running the stores. Well to tell you the truth, half of the departments in these stores are not even open. Deli, pharmacy, meat, produce, why because they don't have qualified people to run them and also why because of their business is off like 70%. And why is that, because people who are supporting the strike and the cause, so LOl, before you open your mouth and dream to have a union job, get the facts and shut your mouth and go work your low paying pathetic wal mart job. Bye

Hey dumbshit is Steve burd your dad,it sounds like he is.Thats right, Steve fucked his sister 30 years ago thats were you came from, you inbread piece of shit...Those so called 70 thousand workers, half are on loan from differnt parts of the state and out of state.How long do you think those dumbshits well make that commute.If you think the company is going to pay there hotel bill the rest of there lives,you really are a dumbshit. The other 1-4th of that scab bunch are just plain stupid and they well be let go when there drug test comes back..Well what do you have left? about 15 thousand dumbshits thats enough to do customer service best in class meat and produce and run night crews,file maintanence and book keeping (booth)for about 700 or 800 stores in southern CA..I forgot, your a dumbshit....

Hey dumbshit is Steve burd your dad,it sounds like he is.Thats right,your dad did his sister 30 years ago thats were you came from, you inbread piece of shit...Those so called 70 thousand workers, half are on loan from differnt parts of the state and out of state.How long do you think those dumbshits well make that commute.If you think the company is going to pay there hotel bill the rest of there lives,you really are a dumbshit. The other 1-4th of that scab bunch are just plain stupid and they well be let go when there drug test comes back..Well what do you have left? about 15 thousand dumbshits thats enough to do customer service best in class meat and produce and run night crews,file maintanence and book keeping (booth)for about 700 or 800 stores in southern CA..I forgot, your a dumbshit....

Wow, you union sheep should really look into anger management services. Oh I forgot, you great union cannot provide you with medical benefits anymore. Yea I would really like to belong to your union. Marching around and yelling at customers for $150.00 a week. You losers don't get it. You really think the public supports you? Acting like assholes to them? Here is a reality check. They don't support you, they are intimidated by your thug tactics so they avoid the stores just like they will when you ass wipes return to work.

Do the union members shop at Wal Mart? If so, then they are sealing their own fate. Johnathan, you run along now. Get your sign and bullhorn and go join your fellow strikers, you have customers to yell at.....Dick head loser

It's January 12th. What idiot striker thinks the supermarket chains are going to cave in after the holidays - the most lucrative time of the year? Allow me to clue all of you in: Some of the Vons companies will be "sold" and marketed under another name, like "the 99 cent grocery store". Those chosen will be the ones that are not the cash cows, probably losing money,could easily be converted, and do much better. I think you strikers do not see the forest through the trees. Those CEO's who you bash have had this planned out a year in advance. That's why they are CEO's, educated, business savy and aren't carring stupid signs around all day doing nothing. The smart strikers are those who have already crossed. All the rest of you should start lining up in the unemployment line so you're not in back of the other thousands who won't get their jobs back - ever. The economy is changing. Why don't you do something productive like taking a business or economics class? Read the Wall Street Journal or Business Daily. You will then see how foolish you have been since October.

Don't waste your time In the know. Most of these fools just like to rant and curse about the fact that their union jobs are going away. The ironic thing is that they tell the public to shop at non union stores until they get their way, then switch back and shop at their stores again. They think that everyone is a sheep like them. Doing whatever their union "boss men" tell them to do. United they stand (in unemployment line) divided they beg (for their old jobs)

Read the "pro-strike" posts and the funny thing is how incredibly uneducated these people come off as. The truth is they're very sad people--they're sheep and have been lied to by their employers and their unions both. They are nothing but pawns and will unfortunately lose their simple-minded joe-jobs and have to get work at the new non-union outlets (what other work will your limited grocery store resume get you?) and most will never know what hit them as they lose their homes, their cars and whatever meager things they have in their lives... but isn't that what you should expect when you take on "unskilled" jobs? That you could become replacable at the drop of a hat? Of course... The union employees are terrified now. At every store I've seen they just stand (mostly sit) in a circle and talk about how totally screwed they are. They don't even truly picket anymore. Sure the strike has hurt the parent companies but their bottom lines will be better off in the long run by jettisoning the numbnuts who walk the line in favor of other unskilled workers willing to take the jobs they offer. Wake up, strikers. You should have been happy with what you had--good wages, benefits and such... and now you've killed it all and will regret it. Nobody I know supports the strikers anymore and that's the truth.

I will sum this up in one sentence, those who do not support the strike are A) ignorant or B) jealous. That's it. Hey scabs, what are you going to do when these stores don't need you anymore? Talk about being used, you're the ones who are being used. Why else would they hire you? And to scabbie: the reason you work for one of these companies now is because it's the only time they will hire your worthless ass, when you talk about being used, look into the mirror.

By the way, read the LA Times Editorial article Jan. 13, titled "Union striking Out". What a shame you strikers weren't "In the Know".

I've allowed this forum to run rampant long enough without interjecting my opinion. For those that do not know, I run this site and probably should have close this forum once it became a bickering match.



First of all. This is a real issue that affects the lives of hundreds of thousands of people from those that are on strike, to those who are using this opportunity to get employment at Vons, to those who are being harassed by strikers, to those who have been inconvenienced by the strike. This is a real debate that speaks to far reaching issues of culture, government, community, economics, and corporations. I do not believe one can reduce this specific strike to whether unions are good or bad. History has proven that unions have definitely had their place in our society. I do not think you can say unions are obviously all good or all bad because of this particular strike. The issue in this case, isn't the validity of Unions. This issue would have come up whether there was a union or not. Without the unions, the employees on strike, and the scabs would have lost this battle a long time ago. There are plenty of arguments as to why this union botched this fight. There are also arguments for why the union was necessary in this instance to help protect the public. You can also criticize the strikers for fighting a losing battle. You can call them weak and/or winers. You can point out how there are lots of worse jobs, or take the opposite approach and point out how many better jobs there are that these people could have taken. None of these things goes to the heart of the real issue which WILL affect everyone in this country regardless of what side of the union debate you take.



The class gap is widening. Public acceptance of reduction in benefits and pay for the lower and lower-middle classes are undeniable signs that things are changing. If you take a liberal perspective, you can argue that we are all one community and should put people above money and profits. You would be right. If you are a capitalist conservative, you too should be worried, because it is your tax dollars that will be subsidizing these reductions. Thanks to Crooked Timber for noting that America spends more money on health care per person than some governments with public health care systems.



You may think you are above this issue because you are middle, upper-middle, or upper class, but you would be wrong, especially if you are in the middle classes. These issues that are not affecting the lower-middle classes never rose above lower class before. The middle-middle class will be next. Don't believe me? Read this, this, and this and draw your own conclusions.



So if you want a real debate about the real issues surrounding this strike, I encourage you to take a bigger-picture look at this. I think the insult contest that has characterized this discussion does no good and helps no ones case. How about some solutions? If you disagree with the stance of the strikers, which is your right to do, how about explaining why you think Vons is right to do this? As Americans, we were all promised the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.



In summation, I am asking you to follow some advice I was given once. While arguing an issue with someone who disagrees, ASSUME they too have only good intentions.

I Am A Scab and loving it. I am keeping someones job safe. If no one shopped at Ralphs it would shut down and the union employees would not have a job to go back to. Meanwhile, the talking heads are doing their thing.

I am working in the bakery and it has come up full scale thanks to the excellent trainng I have received. It's very busy work and I am keeping it safe for the union employee whom I have heard is/was very good at her job. The customers have a full scale bakery again and maybe we should consider the customer for a second. The loyal and regular customer just wants to go shop, bring it on home and go about their life. All of this mess is between the employees union and their stores. The customers are not on strike. They are caught up in the middle of all this mess. The union employees of Vons are on strike. Ralphs and Albertsons are locked out. Why should the customer take sides? When customers shop they never go to a store because of the checker. They go to the store for sales, coupons favorite brands etc. They do not go to the store because of the employees. So please do not be rude to YOUR customers. They shop at STORES not EMPLOYEES.

It's all big business between the union and the store owners. The union members are the unions pawns in all this. I'm just filling in and having a great time.

And yes, I do shop at WalMart. Don't we all!!!!
We can't have our cake and eat it too. PS - I decorate a great cake.

I don't care about the Strike other than to say that the scabs they hired at my store are all hottie OC gals with fake boobs and halter tops. I'm shopping there about 3 times a day!

My point exactly...The customer is non-union!!!!!!

NO, my point was that I like hottie OC gals with fake boobs and halter tops.

you know what befor the strike i was working at vons for about 3 months or so I am 21 i could have crossed but I am not a money hungry fien like many people stated its not about the money its about the enviorment i was in and the people i was not even in the union there for it would have not effected me in any way but jobs come and go but good people last for ever you losers fufking scabs

What SCAB stands for: Someone Cares About Buyers
Thats something the union moneys don't get. The customers are tired of being victimized by this union. If it were not for the scabs, customers would have no choice. Union tactics are in fact legalized extortion, nothing more nothing less.

Doris,

You say you are 21 and your name is Doris, I don't believe you. In order to have a name like Doris, you must be at least 70. However, if I am mistaken, please accept my apologies and extend them to your sisters, Myrtle and Phyllis.

That being said, might I suggest a writing class that deals specifically with spelling, capitalization, punctuation, and overall sentence structure.

this is not about benefits,or pay raises this is simply about UNION BUSTING and unless someone files a lawsuit against Vons or even MR Burd,they may very well succeed

This country had better wake up soon. First of all "the union" doesn't make people strike. The workers in the union are the union and they vote whether or not to strike.

If we dont get our act together in this country soon, we're going to be right back where are grandparents were in the 1920's/1930's. Working 12-16 hour days, no days off. The unions are what got us the 40 hour work week, time and half overtime, holiday pay, 2 days off a week and benefits including retirement and medical care.

Companies like IBM, Microsoft, American Airlines, Insurance companies, phone companies and manufacturing companies continue to ship our work overseas. They ship it overseas to countries with 2 classes the rich and poor so the poor can have jobs that still keep them poor.

The next time you call Dell Computer, or an airline, or an insurance company, or the next time call with cell phone trouble, ask what country you're talking to. It's most likely India or Mexico or the Phillipines. When everyone is making low wages with no benefits, or everyone is unemployed who do the RICH CEO's think will buy their products and services?

American's deserve an hosenst wage with good benefits for an honest day's work. Check out the salaries of the CEO's and see how rich the stockholders are.

I won't shop at Von's or Safeway or any of the striking supermarkets until the workers get their health insurance, just like I dont shop Wal-Mart because of their labor practices. Walmart was just caught giving employees life insurance as long as the employees were making Wal-Mart the beneficiaries. Take a look at how much money the Walton family has then look at a pay check stub of Wal Mart employees.

I'm behind the strikers all the way. It's time to unite and fight big business and remind them WHO it was that made them big. Front line employees are the ones who can make or break a company and keep the customers coming back...not the guy at the top with the whip in his hand.

Thanks Mike. You stated what I was just about to say. Today's Unions may be corrupt. They may not even have the workers best interests at heart, but that doesn't mean the strikers are wrong for striking. Strikes can happen without Unions. The right for workers to organize to protect their rights is a crucial element to our democracy. It is through the act of uniting under a common goal that child labor was ended. It is through striking that people got a minimum wage, benefits, reasonable hours, and overtime pay. To blame the strikers, or claim they are being insensitive to the customers is to accept that corporations have won and can do whatever they want. We do not want to go down that path. Reducing benefits is only the beginning. There WILL be an attempt to homoginize how workers are compensated throughout the world as free trade demands countries compete on how it compensates workers in order to compete on price. We are already seeing this happen in other countries that offer more than we do, as they reduce benefits to try and emulate us. It won't be long before Europes 3-5 weeks of vacation goes the way of the dodo and it won't be long before few lower and lower-middle class or entry level jobs flat do not give any benefits to its workers. The only chance we have to fighting the hemorrhaging of our worth is by demonstrating our united stance and power.



I still have hope, but it is fading fast. The attitude of people like mindee and La Observer has no doubt contributed to the apparent failure of this current strike to influence Vons in any way. These mega-corporatioins are so large they can weather the strikes long enough to recoup employees. If they can't weather it, they merely file for government bankruptcy protection and start over, either way they (the executives) win and have little to lose. There ARE other stores we can shop at, it isn't THAT much of an inconvenience for most people. Leaving the lower and middle classes behind is unacceptable. You WILL pay for it one way or another.

One more comment:

Unions can't FORCE a company to give employees things that will cause the company to fold. Unions negotiate. The top management at every large corporation has a contract that is negotiated between lawyers, then why cant the employees have a contract that spells out their pay, benefits and working condition.

Who would benefit by the company going broke? Not the employee, not the company and certainly not the union.

The problem with Unions is not that they "Bargain" what they really do is extort. In this case, the picketers are harassing customers and are now becoming even more militant by barricading stores so customers cannot shop. The Teamsters allow unqualified drivers to endanger the public because they will not cross the picket line. All the public is trying to do is eat. So it is extortion and strong arm tactics that make me hate unions.

This thought occured to me the other day when I saw some jackass picketers harassing a few elderly customers (funny-they never harass me, but I guess old folks are an easy target).

Why exactly are they allowed to carry signs attached to 2x4's? Is this not a weapon? I know if I walked around the store (which incidentally, seems to go against the whole "no loitering" thing) with a baseball bat, chances are a cop may have something to say about it.

Remember picketers, the more beligerent you get, the less we care about you. In truth, I honored the strike for about a month and a half, but after hearing of and witnessing some "thug tactics", I decided to cross.

You're only hurting yourselves!

You poor striker idiots. Just today the district managers came to our store (vons) to discuss what tactics they will take when the strike is over - losers. You will be offered what you were offered in October, but at lower wages. Scabs will fill in. This will take place in February. Why don't you get a clue and go back, get other jobs, or understand that the union is fucking you over. I will not post another note because none of you are "in the know". Poor fools.

Let's not forget that the entire American work force is currently benefiting from many things that organized labor has fought for through the years. Things such as....
40 hour workweeks
Overtime pay
Sick pay
Holiday pay
Child labor laws
Health and Safety laws
Workers Compensation
Health Plan benefits
Have any of you had a day off for Labor Day?
You can thank organized labor for that... I appreciate and respect the people who are out there picketing because they are the true foot soldiers of the American Labor force. No one else ever fights for these things that we all benefit from.... We all take these things for granted... Think twice before you bite the hands of those who are fighting for a cause that is much bigger than most people realize.... Most people don't even truely understand what this fight is about or the impact of the outcome on ALL American workers..... Without these street warriors... there would be no middle class Americans.

My husband is one of the "Temporary" workers Vons has hired to keep our local store open through this strike. I have read a few comments that the "Temps" couldn't get a better job or even the temp position they currently hold if it wasn't for the strike. In some cases this is correct, but not in ALL of them. There are several people that work with my husband who are there for the same reason he is. Their PRICIPALS. There are a few SUCCESSFUL business owners, some of the part time workers have other good paying full time CAREERS. My husband quit his full time position about a year ago to go back to school full time, to obtain a degree in his field. We knew how long this could take and have planned accordingly. This temporary position is not "life or death for us."
Just because we do not support the strike or the union, obviously, dosn't make it right or wrong. I would like to make this one point. We should all thank GOD and our Troops that the strikers have the right to strike, and we have the right to cross their picket lines.

Oh, and by the way, whether your for or against the is not for this forum, but just an interesting tidbit.....a lowly enlisted single man pays $50 a month for health benefits.....but their job is nothing right...easy...they just have to be ready to DIE for your right to live in FREEDOM. Just food for thought.

Here is my question...if "In the Know" is a big company man making six figures a year, then why is he making coments on some random strike message board???
Yes, I have a new job, but I still go out and support this strike. It is just terrible to see how many people on this site are making comments that they know nothing about (example: saying that we have 2x4 sticks. SO WHAT! we are not animals, what, do you think we are going to beat someone with it? no). JUST KEEP YOUR MOUTHS SHUT UNLESS YOU KNOW THE FACTS.
also, to those of you who say nobody supports us, you are totally wrong. Think about it, a lot of customers have become our personal friends over the years that people have worked. and i dont know where you all live but at my vons, we still do not get very much business. so hmm...who's the fool here? It looks like we are still supported.
killa cali strike supporter
PS. to that guy in the OC, it is pathetic how you go in to oggle the fake boobed chicks. 3 times a day huh? get a life.

Bwahahahaha. Yo Wonko! You're site just got called a "strike message board" That'll teach you not to close comments :)

Greg Conger, overpaid fraud and all-around negotiating nimrod yesterday was quoted (and I'm paraphrasing here-so I guess it's not technically a quote, but you get the point), "If they (the public)won't support our strike, then it is your (bananna scanners) duty to make theor shopping experience as miserable a spossible."

Great leadership and moreso, very forward thinking just in case the bananna scanners get their jobs back). Yep, keep listening to this guy. I'm sure many people listened to the Captain of thr Titanic as well.

BTW-Union leaders calling kettle black?

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-golden26jan26,1,4982994.story

I THINK YOU ALL NEED TO WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE......EVERYONE IN THIS WORLD HAS TO PAY FOR THERE BENEFITS AND 1/2 OF US DON'T EVEN GET THE BENEFITS THAT YOU GUYS GET(CHIROPRACTIC,DENTAL,VISION...)AND YOU WANT TO COMPLAIN BECAUSE THEY WANT YOU TO PAY FOR YOUR BENEFITS??? NOBODY WANTS TO FEEL SORRY FOR YOU WHEN ALL OF US IN THE WORLD HAVE TO PAY FOR OUR BENEFITS. YOU NEED TO REALIZE THAT YOU ARE NOT MORE SPECIAL THAN ANY OF US IN THE WORLD AND IF YOU STRIKERS WERE ALL CORRECT THAN WHY DO YOU FIGHT SO HARD TO GET EVERYONE TO SUPPORT YOU?? YOU NEED TO LEAVE EVERYONE ALONE AND NOT HARASS PEOPLE WHEN THEY CHOOSE TO SHOP AT VONS, ALBERTSONS, OR RALPHS...THIS IS AMERICA AND WE ARE ALLOWED TO SHOP ANYWHERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!GO BACK TO WORK AND PUT YOUR ENERGY IN YOUR JOB AND NOT ON SOMETHING THAT IS GETTING YOU NO WHERE!!!

Jennifer, please stop yelling at us. Hit your caps key, please. But seriously, I hate to berate a commenter, but I have to point out the major flaw in your reasoning. You are saying that most people get worse benefits than those in this union and because of that they should stop complaining. First of all, if they DO really have better benefits, than their Union IS working. Second of all, and most importantly, instead of saying they should have bad benefits so they can suffer like the rest of us, why not try and think of how we can be brought up to their level of benefits. If they LOSE their benefits, we have even less of a chance of fighting for the same benefits. Does that make sense? The less people with good benefits, the harder it will be to fight for good benefits. By fighting to let those that HAVE good benefits, KEEP their good benefits, we are in essence fighting for ALL of us to attain good benefits.



You're attitude strikes me as very American. Trying to make things fair by pushing everyone DOWN to the same level as opposed to working to elevate each other. "If I suffer, than everyone should suffer." We need to get beyond this selfish thinking. The people at Vons are not the enemy. They are not wealthy non-taxpayers who are taking advantage of you. They are citizens just like you and me, but with better health care. Those of us who would like to see that type of coverage for average americans in our lifetime should be standing up and fight for those people, whose benefits we covet, who are slowly losing their benefits.

I suppose the whole argument is mute. If the Union grocery workers want better pay and benefits than the market rate, then they may indeed win them however when the non union discounters such as Wal Mart move in, they will go out of business and the Union workers will lose their jobs because the stores will not be able to compete. Or perhaps not, it is really capitalism at work. In order for the Union to sustain it's mission which is to inflate the pay and benefits above market, then the Union workers should only buy from Union stores, drive cars built by the UAW etc. I suspect that many of them don't however because they too want the best value for their money and that is seldom, if ever a product or service that is provided by organized labor

Or, we can fight to have all our benefits increased. Employees of Wall-Mart can Unionize. You may say that Vons giving its employees good benefits is unsustainable, but I say that not giving middle and lower-class workers benefits is unsustainable. It gets paid for by all of us one way or another. It only provides short-term gain. Most of American businesses choose short term gain over long term sustainability though. Gotta keep that stock moving. Keep increasing shareholder value. I say, get rid of the horrible stock market which has no basis on reality anyway.

Wonko, I believe that you are correct in saying people with good benefits should be able to keep them, but there comes a time these same people should expect to at pay at least a SHARE of COST for their benefits. The employees and their union are expecting Vons to absorb the increase in insurance costs and wages, AND stay competetive so there will be a company left for these people to work for? Where's the logic in that? Please, don't give me that crud about upper level corporate management's salaries. If the strikers would like to make that kind of complaint, they should get the education, experience and take on the responsibilities these people have.

I am really surprised nobody has touched my earlier comment about our enlisted men and women and the fact that even they have a share of cost for their health insurance. Maybe they should go on strike too! If I understand correctly, those who support this strike would support them. Right? I don't know about you, but I sure would sleep better at night knowing this was a possibility. NOT!!!!!!!

hey jon,
actually what LJ meant by killa cali is a quote/anthem from a band, not a pro wrestler, so dont talk unless you know.
mark

Wheter pro wrsetling or a band or a Saturday afternoon cooking show on the Lifetime channel, it's still stupid.

Way to go not addressing the rest of the post though.

Jon
aka Shizzle Nizzle Bizzle Dizzle Boy-eeeeeeeee!

jon,
hey whats the problem? i was trying to have a calm argument and you just shoot back with stuff like idiot and bananna scanner. come on, lets hear some valid arguments, how about a serious argument instead of having you just shoot insults. so what are you doing looking up killa cali? not much time on your hands? you can only insult me for putting a song title? im not being rude, just asking. so suprise me with a non insulting post next time. are you a scab?

LJ,

Hey, you called me out directly and I have since posted articles supporting my claims(although it seems one of the posts was taken down-it was about strikers using bats-to refute your we're not animals comment.

If you're a striker, I actually feel bad for you as your leadership is guiding all of you down the wrong path. Just hope you see it before it's too late.

Bananna scanner is not an insult. It is a job description. The best defense to slander is the truth.

FYI-there's this thing called a search engine. It makes information readily available on a few seconds notice. Simply type in killa cali, and every rap group in the free world comes up. It seems as if "killa cali" is up there with "throw your hands in the air and wave em like ya just don't care" on the list of Rap Band 101.

Finally, I am not a scab. I gave up on jobs that most 7th gtaders could do back in, well, 7th grade.

This little editorial comes in two part....one addressed to the Union representatives and the big name negotiators. Two is addressed to the frustrated employees outside the grocery stores

Iam what you have called a scab. But if not for scabs, the wound would not heal.

To the union I must remind you why you even existed? Because people needed you, you were created to safeguard the working environment and to maintain the balance of power between the existing parties. What happened? You lost your grounds when you lost your sight on what should have been your primary concern, the people you instructed to walk out and picket. Don't start a fight that you can't finish and ask someone else to fight your cause when you dont even know how to win. Did you not see that they still need to find a source of income to put the food on the table on a daily basis and what about rent, which landlord has considered your campaign and let the rent slide for the next four months or even more, and the repo man, he just doesnt want to hear how unfair practice have been in the workplace, tough the car is gone because your people cant make the payment on the amount you are handing out to them. Get a Clue, or ask somebody.

To all the striking employees You are correct to support the union for if the union breaks, employers are subjected to the whims of the corporations and thus the benefit in working in the grocery industry is lost.

For the union, you went to war without calculating the cost to lay siege to the city in other words, you ran out of resources and your morale and momentum fell flat. You forgot why you even existed. Without the employees, you would not exist However to ask the employees to stand vigilant in your pursuit to resolve this matter favorably you forgot to use your trump card, the employees. In other word, your people, the resource that would have made you more successfull in your endeavors if your methods were considering their needs. If its raining outside and you want to go out without getting wet, bring an umbrella or stay indoors. If you request the employees to walk away from their source of income, provide an alternative. Not the measly minimum rate and expect morale to maintain the same caliber after 100 or more days. Therefore it is reasonable to assume, you overlooked that detail, you overlooked the people. What happened to the cumulated dues that was paid to even work in the grocery industry over the years? you should have saved for a rainy day and spent it on head hunters that may have relocated those workers with experience that other corporations in the industry or others who are anticipating to enter the market (ex..Walmart) would be more then willing to hire on. Thus you would have successfully secured your resources and made your point when the corporation feels that it is not to their benefit to lose a major portion of their "experienced" workers to the competitions and risk losing their closely guarded techniques and methods. All the training the corporation had spent would be lost and would have to be replaced and the financial damage would be formidable.

So next time, remember those employees and just put up a sign saying, your friendly cashier who lives next to you for the last 12 years is now working at Walmart, please shop at Walmart for the same quality service you once received and to teach the corporate bullies in here not to underestimate the value of their hard working employees at Vons.

That would made a more effective statement than a few frustrated temporarily ex employee who doesnt know the home team is losing because the starting pitcher lost his glasses and lost sight that he didnt even see the catcher. For all you Union leaders and professional negotiators, you may be verse with the legality aspect but for the personal and individual aspect and the core of your existence, you let a lot of people down who believed in you. They thought you could protect them from the bully tactics of the big corporations but when the dust settles, I see your white flag as their champion was nothing but hot air and empty promises. Your public relation department must be working overtime to find you an acceptable scapegoat for your reckless handling of union dues which you did not put to use when your people needed it.

To the employees outside, first and foremost my heart goes out to you and I wish you the very best in your endeavors, however realistically we live in a Capatalistic society, where ones lost is anothers gain and until you sign the paycheck don't tell me not to "capitalize" and seek temporary employment because you are striking. I empathize with all of you for we all have financial responsibilities we must fulfill.

I close with sincere hope that the present issue will be resolved to the satisfaction of both parties, and to hope that a lesson was learned from all this that we may not agree on all the issue but at least, can't we talk and try to resolve it?

I just hope to find a job soon, the bills are piling up again and the stress is coming back. I wish you well but whole heartedly I still have that bitter taste in my mouth from all the name calling I recieved just to work an honest days work.

Sincerely,

A Scab

Thank you for your excellent and non-inflamatory comment. I may not agree with everything you said, but I appreciate your commitment to working these issues out through civil discourse.



I want to reitterate that, unless you are a corporate executive millionaire, which I doubt you are, we are ALL on the same team. Whether you are a scab, a striker, a customer, or a Walmart employee, we are all struggling to maintain our way of life. We are all struggling to keep our heads above water while health costs, education costs and other costs of living skyrocket. This while our wages never seem to get much better. Even if you are a middle-class middle-manager who makes a decent wage, do not believe you are immune to the cost of all out capitalism. Your job may be in danger too as lower cost, foreign replacements are quickly found. Remember, our government SUPPORTS sending jobs overseas. In a report President Bush sent to Congress last week, he said that sending jobs overseas is good for America and good for our economy. Those are no longer blue collar manufacturing jobs, but white colar skilled labor jobs as well.



We're all on the same team, lets try and figure out how we can improve the quality of life for all hard-working Americans.

And if you didn't see my related post, check it out here.

Wonko,
Once again I ask you if you believe our US MILITARY should strike because they have a share of cost for ther medical benefits? Why won't you answer this simple question? What makes the grocery workers deserve better? I am not saying they deserve less either, so please don't go there.

I also have a question for the strikers and strike supporters that think it is ok to vandalize another person's property. While parked in a Vons parking lot, my husbands 2002 truck had an acidic fluid spilled on it. The chances of it being an accident are slim to none. Whether it was a striker or a strike supporter doesn't really matter. There were strikers outside at the time, he always parks right out front under a light between 9 pm and 6 am. By the time he saw it at approx 6:30 am it had eaten throught the paint. Almost everyone I have spoken to will not be shopping Vons when this strike is over. The union and the strikers have tried to make people miserable. Why I support someone that tries to hurt me maybe not physically this time, but definately financially. If I turn this claim into my insurance, my rates will go up. If I don't we are talking at least $3000.00 to have our truck completely repainted. Do the "scabs" really deserve this?

I doubt you will answer this post, you seem to avoid direct questions, or maybe just the ones you can't argue with.

Dora, I am not going to dignify your insult with a response, I will however answer your question. As I pointed out earlier in this debate, having the attitude that the Vons workers shouldn't get great benefits when others do not have these benefits is to look at it the wrong way. The military SHOULD have WAY better benefits than they get. Bush should not have reduced their health care in the middle of a war. The military should have BETTER benefits than Vons employees, absolutely. Will it help the Military if Vons workers lose this battle? No, it will only hurt. Each time benefits are reduced for the middle and lower classes it sets a new precedence. We should ALL be fighting for the Vons workers precisely because so few people have as good of benefits as they do. They deserve them, just as all hard working Americans do. I detailed my views on this in a comment above, please read it for my full answer.

hello,
i noticed that jon put up some bad stories on the union members attacking people, etc. well here are some scab stories:
http://www.scabpickers.org/story_04-02.htm

Wonko,
I believe that you are correct in saying people with good benefits should be able to keep them, but there comes a time these same people should expect to at pay at least a SHARE of COST for their benefits. The employees and their union are expecting Vons to absorb the increase in insurance costs and wages, AND stay competetive so there will be a company left for these people to work for? Where's the logic in that? Please, don't give me that crud about upper level corporate management's salaries. If the strikers would like to make that kind of complaint, they should get the education, experience and take on the responsibilities these people have. (POSTED February 4, 2004)

If you would have read what I wrote, you would realize that I do agree with part of what you're saying, but there comes a time when you have to be reasonable. WHO IS EXPECTED TO PAY FOR THE INCREASE IN COSTS? WHY IS IT STRICTLY VONS RESPONSIBILITY? All that is going to happen, is these costs will be passed down to the consumer. If Vons customers then decide to shop somewhere else, the employees will be out of a job AND their precious benefits.

By the way you STILL haven't answered my question.

DO YOU THINK OUR U.S. MILITARY SHOULD BE ABLE TO GO ON STRIKE?

NEW QUESTION: How much are you willing to take from your family (ie: higher taxes, higher prices, etc.) to pay for all of these BENEFITS?

As for your comment about me insulting you, I just made an observation. I believe I was the one insulted. I was taught it was rude not to answer a direct question.

I heard an interesting tid-bit about the strike on NPR yesterday, and about how Wal-Mart's model has been thrown around and trampled on. They talked about how people (mostly in California) are saying that the strake is partly to blame on competing with Wal-Mart. The lady being interviewed on NPR claimed that there is no competition between the grocers and Wal-Mart, because there is not a Wal-Mart in Southern California that sells Groceries. Just a tid-bit I found worth sharing.

well im done arguing about the whole thing. thank the lord we are finally back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

S.L.N.

While I appreciate the "stories", I have to question any story that comes from a pro-strike web page called scabpickers.org. If you're going to offer stories as fact, can we not find a more reputable source such as a major newspaper This is little more than propaganda at this point.

Nice settlement by the way, but what should I have expected from leadership such as yours. Be sure to vote them out when you get back to avoid getting scrwed so hard in the future.

hey Jon,
well ok you say we got totally screwed...well there were a lot of things worked on compared to the first offer in october. and also, if it hadnt been for the union, the company would have screwed us over even further. without them, we would have been making Wal-Mart wages by now. why drag the economy down? its already expensive enough to live in California.
thanks

Lisa,

From my research, the original offer they made included a pay raise. However, I would be interested to hear how the Union helped you, as an outsider, it looks as if they sold you out.

I'm not anti-striker, aside from the few who like to act like animals harassing people on the line, but I do believe your leadership is absolutely horrible. I wonder if Greg Conger et. al will feel the same ramifications that you do.

Let's face it, most industries enjoy a period of great gains that are not sustainable when other factors enter the market. I am in Marketing, as such, I too have no real discernable skills. However, the late 80's and early 90's were a period in which the industry flourished. However, given things like postal increases, the internet, and alternative forms of media, the direct mail industry dried up. It's the nature of industry.

Either you solidify your market by creating limitations to entry, in your case, having lower margins to begin with-or somebody like Wal-Mart will come in an exploit it.

I've posted yet another update HERE.

this is all I could think about during my economics class today...so this is what I have to say about it all.

that argument has been brought up over and over again in this discussion forum that Von's workers might not deserve the free benefits they were fighting for, and the basis seems to be on the fact that other hard working Americans with more at risk (say soldiers) or more required education (it's not hard to find) don't receive these benefits for free, therefore as an issue of fairness the Vons workers shouldn't expect them. I'm not even going to talk about the issues regarding the moral nature of fair play here, but instead focus on the idea that this argument can only hold if one views medical, dental, and other such benefits as trivial to a proper standard of living. If one instead views these "benefits" not as benefits but as basic necessities to life, this argument falls apart. In fact it work in reverse on looks and says, "why don't these people deserve the necessities of life?" certainly lack of education of risk is not sufficient to deny people necessities. In which case the argument is only stronger in the case of the educated and soldiers... instead of attacking the moral right of Vons workers to demand health benefits, people should be out questioning why every profession doesn't receive these benefits, and why employers aren't required to provide them. (Of course for most small businesses this is an impossibility, I would ask that we avoid that for a second, and perhaps consider government grants or subsidies for small businesses). In Fact we should question why all people don't receive these benefits.

Now moving slightly on track with the Vons strike, the argument has been made that the strikers should think more about the consumers. But this again attacks the members of a system as opposed to the systematic processes that put the members in a situation in which they have to act as they do. Why is it that when we critique the horrible inconvenience placed upon consumers the blame lands upon the heads of the Vons workers, when in fact the cause of their actions was an action taken by the management and CEO's of the Vons corporation. Strikers in general (now I am again avoiding some issues so that I can focus on others, lets forget about union leaders, scandals, etc) aren't out to hurt consumers or the common people, they are out to hurt the corporations and leaders of said corporations in order to gain leverage in talks and discussions. When the Vons workers demand benefits they do not demand them from the pockets of the poor, or even the middle classes, but they demand them from the multi-million dollar salaries garnered by the rich elite CEO's and upper management. And in the eyes of the average middle class American (which most of us I'm assuming are here) this can only be seen as beneficial, as it a) empowers the middle class as it's ranks increase, b) raises standards of living in neighborhoods surrounding their precious suburbs, c) increases the wages of the lower classes, which in turn, decreases crime, increases the education of the average citizen, stimulates the economy, and brings in better schools. In general what it does is help to redistribute wealth out of the hands of the VERY wealthy into the hands of the RATHER poor, thus helping to level our socially stratified society.

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